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Confirm - Undo

Message Publié : 21 Jan 2014 20:58
par Thunkd
There needs to be a button to confirm your move, or allow you to reset your move. All too often I click something by mistake, especially when making a move on my phone... and of course once you misclick you're screwed... that's your move like it or not.

Re: Confirm - Undo

Message Publié : 16 Juin 2014 20:11
par jacbaj
I agree, this has happened to me too, and after playing lots of Trajan, Agricola, and Die Burgen Von Burgund, I am not used to bering unable to cancel. We need a consistent interface.

Thanks

Re: Confirm - Undo

Message Publié : 16 Juin 2014 20:43
par diplojak
here is the consistency policy: you can reset when what you have to do is complicated.
once again, there will be no confirmation for games where you have a single thing to do. It's just too boring to click twice each time, and it will not prevent all mistakes.

Re: Confirm - Undo

Message Publié : 17 Juin 2014 22:05
par jacbaj
Sorry, I have to disagree here - its nothing to do with too many clicks causing boredom - the interface is simply not finished. I am playing in two beginner games, each with two other beginners, and the five of us are making many mistakes that the interface should not be letting us make.

For instance, I was just asked to take the first action of a turn (as start player), and having the Navigate action available to me, and wanting to move to a different tile, I chose that. My turn immediately ended, and it was then someone else's turn. What? What happened there? Ah.. I am on zero money, and the interface didn't even bother telling me that I had no credit and couldn't move anywhere, it just ended my action. It didn't just waste that action either, it wasted another, too, as I had an Explore action prepared for the destination tile that I cannot use where I am.

But in this case the interface is dead wrong. As it happens, I also have two treasure tiles, worth a total of 3 vatus. The rules are very clear (I checked): these tiles may be cashed in at any time. That means during my action too. I should be able to choose the action, then cash them in, then move. Not only is the interface unusable to the point that many actions and victory points are lost, it is also wrong.

But this is not the only problem. As many others have pointed out, the game does need a cancel button (like many others on this site already have). It is not any simpler than many others, and it does not cause boredom, it simply prevents people making obvious mistakes they wouldn't make playing live. A good interface must allow you to express your wishes as effectively as possible, and my wishes then were not to waste two actions doing nothing. Noone would begrudge an extra click or two getting things right, and you have gotten the interface pretty right in Agricola and Die Burgen von Burgund. Lets see it in games like Vanuatu as well.

Thanks,

Jacbaj

Re: Confirm - Undo

Message Publié : 17 Juin 2014 22:15
par jacbaj
you can reset when what you have to do is complicated


Just to add to my previous post, the arguement that moves in Agricola are more complicated than Vanuatu just doesn't fly - many moves in Agricola are simple: take wood, take clay, start player, etc. These are all confirmed.

Moves in Vanuatu can be more complex than this:
Navigate: then specify where, then pay, and if necessary cash in treasures to get enough money (and who knows, there may be other ways to get money, I'm just a beginner).
Construct: again, specify where, specify how you are going to pay.

These similarly need to be confirmed.

Re: Confirm - Undo

Message Publié : 17 Juin 2014 22:20
par diplojak
it looks like you didn't read the help page
yellow bordered action: possible
red bordered action: impossible

it should prevent the sort of mistakes you are talking about.

Re: Confirm - Undo

Message Publié : 17 Juin 2014 22:46
par jacbaj
So you actually built the logic for what we are talking about, and then used it to change a border colour rather than give the opportunity to pay for the move?

Putting aside that it is a bug according to the rules of the game (cash in a treasure tile at any time, including during an action), it is also just very misleading for people to use - a classic example of a poor interface.

Besides, implementing a cancel button is easier than fixing up these sorts of problems, as it can be implemented in the same way for all actions, rather than being subject to the different rules of each action type. And it seems to be a regular request. Your customers keep you

If you don't want to do anything about it, noone is going to convince you. It just seems a shame not to improve your product when people point out good opportunities to do so.

Re: Confirm - Undo

Message Publié : 17 Juin 2014 23:05
par diplojak
customer? I can't see any customer. Just a guy who wants a professional service for free, as often.

I make changes every days. I just can't make every changes that everybody asks each day. So when there is already a border which tells you that you are going to do something stupid, it looks to me that I have lots of other changes to make first.

Re: Confirm - Undo

Message Publié : 17 Juin 2014 23:15
par jacbaj
Nice!

Re: Confirm - Undo

Message Publié : 18 Juin 2014 0:06
par covadis
jacbaj, I am not sure that you are looking at all the works done by only 3-4 persons (and not at full time).
This site is not commercial, it is just trying to not spend too much money.
On my side, I never see another website with so many correction/evolution without any other request than a "thank you" and all of this in a really short time (except during vacation of the 3-4 persons 8) ).

Just to illustrate :
http://boiteajeux.net/forum/viewtopic.p ... 34#p219134

Re: Confirm - Undo

Message Publié : 18 Juin 2014 0:12
par frederic.moulis
covadis a écrit :jacbaj, I am not sure that you are looking at all the works done by only 3-4 persons (and not at full time).
This site is not commercial, it is just trying to not spend too much money.


It's a full time job for one of them ;) So being Premium (and turning into a "customer") is first of all thanking diplojak for his great work, and also ("but not least") allowing him to feed his family and buy a biscuit at midday :)

Re: Confirm - Undo

Message Publié : 18 Juin 2014 1:04
par jacbaj
Thanks Covadis and Frederic,

I am aware how much work a website can be, I appreciate it only too well. I'm not asking for miracles to happen or for anything to be fixed tomorrow. It would be good if the message here was along those lines (eg 'We can only do so much, we will see if we can get to it one day, and thanks for your suggestions.'). In fact in my posts above I note that other games here have very good interfaces (credit where it is due). It would be enough if my and other's issues were acknowledged, and the very real limitations of being able to fix everything were openly communicated.

But instead of the above message, when we are told the issues we raise aren't going to be fixed, it is done rudely, and unconvincing justifications are given. Noone has to justify anything to me, so it is worse to give silly justifications than to offer none.

Note below: I'm not stupid, perhaps that charge might be better laid on an interface that knowlingly gives me a button to cancel my next two actions, whether bordered in red or not. Imagine: a button in Agricola, bordered in red (and a note in the help page telling you not to press it), that allows one to plant two family members in a 'do nothing' space. Who would design such a thing? This is exactly what the Vanuatu interface achieves). And telling me I do stupid things isn't exactly encouraging me to support the administrators.

Diplojak,

I hope you take this message positively - it doesn't really achieve much to get into a flamewar about things. I'm a user and like all other users, a tester of your software. If you want to use the feedback, please do. If not, no problem, just let us know, preferably pleasantly.

jacbaj

Re: Confirm - Undo

Message Publié : 18 Juin 2014 7:06
par diplojak
come on, I don't say you are stupid, I say that red border is there to tell you it's a stupid thing to do... what you often already know. or should know.

the thing is Vanuatu is a game where every one else tries to force you to do something stupid, which is to click on a red bordered action. Yes, we have already defined if you can currently do this action action or not. But no, we can't easily know if you click on it because you didn't see that you don't have the money, or just because you have no clever choice.

Yes, Vanuatu has not the best interface ever. But this border distinction is useful, it works for me, and it's what you have, so it's a pity to just ignore it.
Maybe I will add a warning (but no rollback) if you click on something red, as covadis already asked for. But it will be only for... customers. with the ability to activate it or not.

and that was not the point of Thunkd, who has just big fingers ;)

Re: Confirm - Undo

Message Publié : 18 Nov 2014 14:49
par waaayback
Greetings, I am new to Boite a Jeux and like it a lot. My first games have been Vanuatu and Tzolkin.

I'd like to get this thread back on track as I also encountered this bug in my first game of Vanuatu. My options at one point were to Build, or Sell, and I only had 1 Vatu (and no builder). I stupidly clicked Build first , and the game just accepted the move, did nothing, and it was the next player's turn. That is just wrong. And I don't remember a 'red border'.

There needs to be a confirm/undo just like there is in Tzokin, Burgund, and other games. It is NOT about being boring, NOR is it about paying attention. It is a simple matter of brain fart. If you were sitting at a f-t-f game and tried to Build with 1 Vatu, people would say "hey, you can't do that!" They would NOT say "well, you just spent your build action but can't do anything, sorry".

Please fix this.

Re: Confirm - Undo

Message Publié : 18 Nov 2014 15:10
par diplojak
aye aye sir!
Vanuatu is closed.